An exclusive interview with Dr. Amr al-Azm and his views on the Syrian Uprising
Although many in the United States
have turned their focus elsewhere, the Arab Spring is still alive and well and
unrest still continues in many Middle Eastern states. Recently (November 10th, 2011) I
sat down with Dr. Amr al-Azm for a one-on-one interview asking him his opinions
about the Arab Spring and the events that are taking place in his native
Syria. Dr. Amr Al-Azm is very qualified
to speak on this issue; he has appeared multiple times on the BBC as well as
many other major news outlets and was recently in an episode of PBS’s
Frontline. A link to that video is
listed at the end of this article and I recommend all those wanting to know
more about the unrest in Syria to watch the video.
To give you a little bit of
background on whom Dr. Amr Al-Azm is; he is an Assistant Professor of History
here at Shawnee State University. Dr. Amr
Al Azm was educated in the UK, reading Archaeology of Western Asiatics at the
University of London, Institute of Archaeology and graduated with a doctoral
degree in 1991. He has excavated a
number of sites including Tell Hamoukar in Syria and one possibly associated
with Ghengis Khan's final resting place in Mongolia. He was the Director of Scientific and
Conservation Laboratories at the General Department of Antiquities and Museums
(1999-2004) and Head of the Centre for Archaeological Research at the
University of Damascus (2003-2006). He
has taught at the University of Damascus (1999-2006) and served Dean of University
Requirements at the Arab European University (2005-2006). He is also a keen observer of Middle East
events, in particular Syria and its neighbors. He was a visiting Assistant Professor at
Brigham Young University (2006-2009) teaching courses in political science and
anthropology (2006-2009.)
In the following article all
questions in bold where asked by me, William R. Balzer and the answers that
followed were from Dr. Amr Al-Azm:
What is the Arab
Spring? Is that name appropriate for
what is going on right now in the Middle East?
Well in a sense it’s a misnomer in
that it started in winter; it started in December it didn’t start in the
spring. The reason we call it a spring
is because spring is a time of rebirth of something new and after decades of
repression, authoritarianism, and a lack of democracy we are starting to see a
positive change. It seemed that
everybody around the Arab world and outside it had assumed that the Arab’s were
destined to live or continue living in these pretty miserable conditions in
terms of their civil liberties and their rights to free speech. When this Arab
Spring happened it came out of the blue.
This was a call for basic human
rights that we take for granted here in the West. It seemed that the Arab people and the youth
in particular were finally tired of the situation. The Arab world is a very young population; it
is not an aging population. There have
been huge population booms in Syria, Egypt, and in the rest of North Africa and
all these young people just turned around and said hey, you know what we’re not
taking this anymore. That is why it is
called a spring in that sense because it is a rebirth of a movement or an
expression, or a rejection of the decades of authoritarianism and lack of
democracy.
So the suppression of
human rights throughout the Arab world is what caused the Arab spring or where
there other factors?
Well
it’s not just human rights it’s everything; it’s the whole combination. I mean remember it’s the lack of
opportunities; if you look at it this way there is a lack of opportunities for
employment, opportunities to better yourself, improving your standing in the
world around you and providing for your family.
It is hard to just sit back and watch while this kind of injustice is
happening.
So since we are
trying to relate this to the average American, do you think this is going to
effect the United States at all and if so how?
Absolutely, it is going to
affect the United States for sure.
Anything that happens in the Middle East can have an effect on U.S
interests in the region. The Arab Spring
is going to have an effect on the United States and its policies in the region;
this is why we have seen sometimes contradictory messages coming out of Washington
or even delays in terms of responses by the Obama administration to what is
clearly a need. This happens in part
because they (Washington) are sitting there calculating and factoring in,
saying how is that going to affect our strategic interests in the region and
don’t forget this is a region that produces a significant amount of oil and
also this is where Israel is. These are
all factors that when the United States makes policy it has to take into
account.
So do you think the
United States has a “hands off” policy right now? Is the United States just waiting for the
dust to clear before they pick sides?
No, I think initially they
were caught with their pants down like everybody else but nobody was expecting
this and I think that is why their initial responses were so hesitant. I think now it is quite different and they
are engaging on Syria, and in Libya but staying out of others. It’s kind of interesting to see for instance
with Bahrain the United States did not intervene, they let the Bahraini regime
put down the uprising and I think it’s because of the fear of a Shia take over
and we also have a massive naval station in Bahrain as well. With all those things we were happy to let
the Saudi’s role the tanks in and crush the uprising. In Yemen we don’t seem to be really engaging
President Ali Abdullah Saleh or demanding him to step down or freezing assets
and that’s because one of the United States strongest partners in the region
Saudi Arabia doesn’t really want us to do that whereas on Libya we were ready
to go all the way and lead NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) on the
bombing in Libya and taking Gadhafi out of power.
With your background
you have a very keen ability to see both sides of the coin. In your opinion did the Obama administration
handle Libya correctly?
Libya
is a bone of contention in this country for a variety of reasons but I think
Libya turned out well. With hindsight
being what it is the administration can say here, this was the way to go and we
made the right call. Now had the whole
thing went badly there would have been a different response to that but
personally I think yes, I think it was handled right. Once the people on the ground had made the
decision to take up arms against Gadhafi then they needed the support and got
it; it wasn’t very easy and mistakes were made but the end result was a good
one for everybody with Gadhafi dead.
Also don’t forget that it was a NATO strike that finally basically
stopped Gadhafi as he was trying to escape from Sirte and had him scurrying
into a drain pipe where they finally found him.
What would have been wrong would have been to have a military
intervention, NATO or not and the people not want it.
I can
tell you in Syria for example a lot of people on the ground, not everybody
obviously but a lot of people on the ground, particularly the protestors who
are facing the bullets, manning the barricades, the ones who are getting mowed
down every day are calling for protection.
What they mean when they say protection which is interesting is a
“no-fly zone.” A no-fly zone when you
look at it initially, you may say what the point is; the regime isn’t using any
fixed wing or helicopters apart from occasionally moving troops around with
them for logistics so why would anyone want a no-fly zone?
A no-fly
zone is a code word for something else; it’s a code word for we want the army
to stay in its barracks. We want NATO,
the United States, whomever to actually conduct aggressive action against the
Syrian army that is not sitting in its barracks. I think that would be the ideal way to look
at it. They could hit Syrian troop
movements while on the road, whilst they are moving from city to city, to go in
and force them to stay in their barracks.
As long as they stay in their barracks their safe and as soon as they come
out of their barracks they are going to be targeted. That would be a very powerful message to the
regime saying the rest of the world is very serious about the terrible abuses
the regime has committed and at the same time it would protect the civilians. The civilians are asking for this now like
the civilians of Libya did earlier. There
is a big difference from when people are calling for this and when they are
not. Right now the vast majority of
people, both inside and outside Syria are calling for some sort of action that
would prevent the Syrian army or somehow restrict the ability of the Syrian
regime to go out and kill its people.
Now I am sure that
you would like to see something like a No-Fly Zone enacted in Syria but do you
think that will actually come to pass?
I don’t know it’s kind of
difficult; so far all indications are that they have no intentions to do so but
this can change and there are a number of events or acts that could change
that. A very serious escalation in the
causalities can be a possible trigger to intervention; another trigger could be
with the Arab League. Once the Arab
League suspended Libya’s member ship that opened the door for the U.N’s
Security Council to make a resolution and from there NATO was able to act. There is a chain reaction, right now on
Saturday the Arab League is having a special meeting which we hope and we
suspect will suspend Syria’s membership.
That would be a trigger that would hopefully trigger a Security Council
resolution of some sort against the Syrian regime which may then trigger
something with NATO. Without that though
unless there is an imminent catastrophe like in Benghazi you won’t see any
outside intervention. The regime is
stupid but not that stupid; I don’t think they will ever take it to that
level. Their doing right now piece by
piece and street by street, house by house; small bit size chunks to avoid that
escalation.
Former Secretary of
State Condoleezza Rice was on the Daily Show recently promoting her new book
and when she was asked whether Operation Iraqi Freedom had any positive influence
on the Arab Spring she said yes. Would
you agree with that statement?
No, to the contrary
actually; Operation Iraqi Freedom, and there is a couple of contradictory terms
to put it together like that. Operation
Iraqi Freedom held back those of us who were active at that time, it made it
hard for us to make the case for democracy because the US invasion of Iraq
became the by word for this is what happens when you call for democracy, you invite
US or foreign invasions and occupations.
The fact that the occupation was a terrible mess and it was very
mismanaged by the Bush administration was clear for all to see. But most of all
yes we did get rid of Saddam Hussein but is Iraq really a democracy now? No it is not; I’m not saying that the Iraqi
people were better of under Saddam that is in no way what I am saying. But at the same time just because you got rid
of Saddam does not mean that the mission was a success. There isn’t a despot in charge but it isn’t a
democracy either. In Iraq there is a new
form of autocracy in charge and it’s not working. Maliki is not a good example of democracy in
addition that now you have Iran for the most part in charge of Iraq whereas
before they were not even in the picture in the way of influence.
One of the major
fears of Westerners is many of these Arab states breaking down and turning to
chaos after the Arab Spring. Do you
think any of these states in the Middle East will turn into a state like Somalia
or Afghanistan?
The chances for any of these
states to go into a Taliban style of extremism are very unlikely. I’ll give you a very simple answer for that
one; you need a certain environment. Afghanistan
and Somalia is a product of a complete breakdown of society and decades of
civil war. A group like this would not
be able to take hold in many of the Arab states like Syria or Egypt; I don’t
think the people would tolerate it. The
people would uproot it themselves; they wouldn’t need someone to do it for
them. The Islamist party that won in
Tunisia is very moderate and all the public statements they have made are very
reassuring the seculars, to the women and the West. Everyone is looking to Turkey as a model to
follow, in Syria it will be the same.
You have to keep in mind that Middle Eastern society by and large is
conservative by nature. They are
socially conservative but liberal in terms of its politics, business, and
management of its capital. I don’t see a
threat in a Taliban Islamist extremist government taking hold in the
region.
Do you think there is
a way the Assad regime and the protestors can reach an agreement with Assad
still in charge?
The demands of the uprising
are very clear; there will be no dialogue with the regime till Assad agrees to
step down and even then the dialogue will be only about how to transfer
power. There will be no dialogue to
extend the life of the regime.
So the opposition is
willing to talk to him just under certain circumstances?
If we
are going to talk to him he has to first free all political prisoners, withdraw
the troops from the streets, and then he could talk to us on how to hand over
power, and not extend his power. We’re
not interested in any of these deals where he will hand over power hear in a
couple of years. He has total power
right now and we are interested in the talks so there isn’t a power vacuum in
the country. The key demand of the
uprising is that Bashar Assad step down as well as his family and bring an
immediate end to the regime as it is now.
Do you think there is
a relationship between the events we have seen happen in the Middle East and
the Occupy protests here in America and the protests in Europe?
No, I don’t think there is
much of a connection between the two or if at all. I think people power has always existed. The Arab Spring is not the first uprising to
happen; we have seen it in Latin America, we saw it East Asia, we have even saw
it in Eastern Europe back in the late 80’s early 90’s with the fall of
communism. To make idiotic bogus
argument that this is some kind of a plot by the Middle Eastern world to so
discordant America is not just idiotic but moronic and absurd and these people
should be ignored.
Do you think the
message between both these movements is similar?
No, one is
about bringing about democracy and an end to tyranny and authoritarianism and
the other one is essentially about jobs and ending monopolies. I don’t know how important the Occupy rallies
are really; you guys have a mechanism where we don’t. Just go and field candidates that believe in
what you believe in and vote for them.
You don’t need to occupy anything.
Just call up your senator and your congressmen and tell them what you
think of him and tell him if he doesn’t vote the way you want him to vote next
time you’re not going to vote for him and if enough of you do that then that’s
it. But to sit out in a field and bang a
lot of drums you may be bringing some attention to the issues but in the end
what have you done. At the end of the
day, if you want to influence your candidate write him, start a movement; you
have that mechanism, we don’t have that mechanism. We are fighting right now to create that
mechanism and that’s the difference.
In a
following up of what has happened in Syria since this interview the violence
still continues as well as many other Arab states. The Arab League has given the Assad regime in
Syria a three day ultimatum as of Thursday, Nov. 17, 2011. Due to publishing times of this paper who
knows what will happen in the Arab world between now and then but so far the
events that Dr. Amr Al-Azm was speaking of to bring foreign intervention have
started to move into place. Whatever
your view on the Arab Spring is or Syria, may a peace soon be reached in the
region and in the world as a whole.
William R. Balzer
The following is a link to a Frontline Special on PBS’s
about the Syrian revolution and Dr. Amr Al-Azm is featured in this
episode:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/syria-undercover/
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